Second delta doubts

[jonrev]

I bought eight of Brad's plans some while ago and started reading about trikes and quads on here and elsewhere. Was soon clear that there was a massive number of different designs for everything from a flat out racing machine to much more mundane pedal truck/ rickshaw types and with various number and position of the wheels. Everyone had their favourite type and each had it's pluses and minuses. I don't do 'fast' so that narrowed down the brief a bit and I really wanted to be very visible while riding. I also wanted to be able to dismount without drawing a crowd 'look at that poor old fat bloke trying to stand up'. Eventually I decided on a delta with large wheels and a high seat.

My first trike build was hurried and a bit 'suck it and see'. Several cut off and try again episodes but the result didn't look too bad and actually worked really well as far as I am concerned. Two major faults I decided were that it ended up quite heavy and also rather long. Neither was much problem on the road but became a nuisance for storage purposes.

So I started Mk2. Same basic setup but built a bit lighter (I hope) and a bit shorter so it can stand on end in my garage/workshop using the least floorspace. I had also bought a massive batch of bike/trike bits and decided to use one of the two trike rear conversion units which turn a standard bike into an upright style trike. I didn't want another upright trike (my wife nabbed the one that came with the batch of spares and is the work of the devil as far as I'm concerned) but the conversion unit was a good start as my new trike rear end.

I now have the makings together and when I layed it all out it seemed bigger than I'd expected and still pretty heavy. So today I took Mk1 and the new kit outside and clamped the parts together to compare them.

I am pleasantly surprised that the Mk2 will be quite a bit shorter (probably a foot shorter) and seems to feel a fair bit lighter as well. Hard to be sure on the weight as there's obviously a lot more to glue on it but I think it's promising so far. The Mk2 rear end is certainly lighter and no jackshaft also saves a bit of weight. I've also reduced the weight of the rear suspension pivot as this was overbuilt on Mk1

Things I need to sort include:-

Steering- I rather fancy USS but not sure at the moment. I've had a helluva job getting all the controls etc. mounted on standard bars (two brake levers, two gear changers, hub motor throttle etc).

Gears- I never have managed to get all the gears working on Mk1 as the deraileur just doesn't have enough throw. I've tried a couple and neither works properly. Not a big problem as I live in a flat area of Norfolk and like I said I am slooooow so find I only really need two gears for my rides? I also have quite a number of hub motor wheels and controlers for a little extra grunt.

Rear suspension- I have several coil spring units but because of the position of the spring mounts they are all a bit too hard and have little give. The front suspension on Mk1 was seized so never worked and I never missed it as it's pretty easy to steer round the ruts etc.

So- I'm fairly happy now and will carry on with the build. I'll wait till it's finished and tested and if all's well I will probably cut up Mk1 for parts for Mk3.

John

 

[Popshot]

'look at that poor old fat bloke trying to stand up'.

Got that T shirt. The Mk2 tilter was a dog to get on and off despite being only moderately low as all the tilting bits took up the space my feet wanted in order to get up or down.

 

[jonrev]

Since I retired and then did my leg I've put on 4 stones and I was overweight before that anyway. Cycling is supposed to be trimming me down but I'm not doing as much of it as I intended I'm afraid. I'm too much 'fair weather' I'm ashamed to say. Lord knows how those Finnish guys get themselves out in -10 degrees and lower.
Roll on the Spring.

John

 

[Popshot]

Given most all your weight is over the rear suspending the front will not give much comfort so loosing it will not be any issue. The rear end is very shiney. You'll need a stick to beat the magpies off. One of the keys to cycling more is practicality. That means easy on and off and probably some weather protection too, as much against the cold as the rain. Just a partial bit of corroplast, fabric, wood or similar could work wonders and it's easier to design it in from the start than later.

 

[stormbird]

John

Nearly done and 2 trikes , go man go...
How wide is the rear end on the new one ? the commercial one's say 27" however that is to the outside of the hubs , tyre centres are more like 24" a little narrow if you seat is heading towards 18" from the floor IMHO.
Yes dumping the front fork will certainly save some weight , every little helps.

Paul

 

[jonrev]

Clamped up and welded the front to the back today and overall length is just about 72". I can comfortably stand it near a wall in the workshop out of the way so I'm well pleased. Not so pleased that after welding it fully with good big strong welds I discovered that the front wheel has a definite 'list to starboard'. Not sure if I was maybe relying on the sacrificial front wheel I'd used to keep the hub motor one from getting spattered and it wasn't fully seated in the dropouts but whatever I will have to slice through three sides of the welds and apply some gentle persuading to get it straight then weld again. Ah well, that'll teach me not to get so overly keen to glue things together and spend more time double checking first.

I'd like to make a body of some kind but 'design' is probably an overestimation of my abilities and my artistic skills are even less well honed. However I draw a body it always looks like something Fred Flintstone wouldn't want to pedal. There have been a few I've seen on the net that I really liked but on further inspection I don't think I could make a decent job of any of them. That won't stop me trying though It will give the local farmers something to laugh at.

The rear is somewhere around 32" much the same as Mk1 so it just rolls nicely through the doorway which is good. The other rear end I have is indeed nearer 26" and does look narrow. Not sure my rump would wedge into the gap unless I tightened my belt pretty hard.

Considering Mk1 could comfortably turn round in the width of our road this one should be at least as easy to manoeuvre. It will certainly be lighter weight so even with the smaller (24") rear wheels it should move easily. The hub motor is only 250watt but will be fine for my needs over our flat terrain and should be similar performance to Joans upright (also 250watt). Unfortunately the lithium battery packs which came in the spares bundle (and which was one of the main reasons I paid so much for it all) are all U/S except for one 36v unit. All three of the others won't even pull a bike ten feet before dying. The perils of long distance purchases! Still there's lots of bits which could be handy or could be sold so no problem.

Looking forward to shed time again now so I can crack on and get to that first ride. I'll put up pics as things progress. Now where did I put that magpie beater stick?

John

 

[stormbird]

John

Good man , keep at it the problems should only get smaller

I assume something like this is suitable Anura quad velomobile

Other simple body shapes are out there !

From Finnish site project list

Yes a quad and a tadpole however the body shape is easily perverted to a delta ?

Paul

 

[jonrev]

Thank you Paul. That third one does look very interesting and could well adapt nicely I think. It looks like only one curve and the shape is made interesting by the angles of the sides and top. I think getting those angles 'right' seems to be the secret to creating something pleasing on the eye. I keep looking at way too intricate body shapes with compound curves. Think I should just look at making something that doesn't look 'clunky' and keep it simple. Maybe I'll save up some Amazon carboard boxes and try your system of CAD design.

Thanks
John

 

[stormbird]

John

Heap more pictures here :- Velomobile Nuoli

Small but useful

Paul

 

[jonrev]

Just thought I'd put some final results up on here to show that I have actually done something in the last few weeks.
This Mk2 is pretty close to what I wanted to achieve but still hasn't quite hit the spot. It is certainly useable and will give me a nice trike to be using while Mk3 is in progress (Mk1 underwent major surgery to provide some of the parts of Mk2 so keeping trike count to just my wife's horror and my experiment). I decided half way through the build that this was not going to be 'the one' and in all honesty, I then started cutting corners to get it up and running. It's still a tad better finished than Mk1 but not a show stopper bt any stretch of the imagination.

Good things:-

It is lighter in weight. I can lift it onto my bench relatively easily in roadgoing trim (including front hub motor wheel but not battery) so a good bit lighter than Mk1.
It stands up on the rear wheels and seat back and at around 6ft tall it will happily tuck away in a corner of the workshop. Sadly I don't actually have a corner of the workshop free of debrit but am working on creating more space.
I spent time fighting the front deraileur and have managed to get it changing to all three sprockets. The rear cluster has no deraileur and ratio changes are 'by hand' moving the chain as needed. As I've said before my area is pretty much dead flat so my only need for gear changes is when the wind is either in front or behind me. The front cluster gives me plenty of available ratios for my needs.
The seat is a narrowed version of Mk1 which itself was pretty comfortable. It's made from 1/8" ply pop rivetted to a light ally frame and cushioned with carpet underlay type foam stuff. No side support but as I've said before I am a slow rider and especially on corners.
Rear suspension has worked out well again. I found an air 'spring' unit amongst the stash I bought and it has adjusted nicely.
Front rim brake and rear band brake work well and stopping is no problem.
The front hub motor is fine for gentle cruising or helping out when I'm battling a headwind. I have bought the cells making a good battery which will be used with it so Joan and I will both have secondary push when needed on our rides.

Bad things:-

The trike conversion unt is horrible. I don't know if it's just a cheaply made unit but it just doesn't line up accurately so the drive shaft is stiffer than it should be to turn. I managed to get it reasonably free running by cutting and shutting one of the three 'hoops' but once bolted to the trike it stiffened up again. I was really careful to weld the mounting frame on the trike while the axle unit was bolted on to it but clearly not careful enough. I think the whole unit is just not strong enough to hold the bearings in a straight line.
I didn't take enough care with the rear frame design so the seat is higher than I had intended. In all honesty that is not a real problem as far as riding is concerned but I would have set it lower if I'd planned it better.


Next build:-

Well each day I decide on a different idea?? I still don't want a low slung machine. I still don't much like the idea of my legs jutting out ahead of the trike. I still like the idea of some bodywork of some kind but not a true enclosed velo shape.
I still like the idea of a perimeter frame style chassis for easy attachment of fairing/body panels. I still rather fancy that Cellar Crawler RWS but worried about spending all the time and effort and maybe ending up with a disappointment. I'd still like to be able to stand the trike up in my workshop.
In short I have no idea what I should start on next.

I'll keep reading and watching what you guys are building and see what tickles my fancy next.

John

 

[stormbird]

John

great write up thanks for sharing.

Both being able to pick it up and being able to stand it on end are an achievement coupled with being 6ft [ 72" ] long is impressive I think my possible delta would end up about 84" IIRC.
I understand what you are saying about the ' Next build ' my first Python was a straight copy of an Americans trike [ so he did all the thinking and made the initial mistakes ] I merely changed it match my raw materials and changes of role it had to perform etc etc.

Now I am free to design my own I have become bogged down in do I built it this way ? do I build it that way ? is there a better way of building it ? should I have suspension ? 2 wheel drive even ? should it be a delta [ simpler ] or a quad [ more complicated but shorter ] etc etc

Paul

 

[jonrev]

Paul I am following your threads and am in awe! I don't have either your patience or your design/planning skills. I'm way too keen to 'get it done' and tend to use what I have available whether strictly suitable for the job or not. Any results which are actually moderately successful are a result of good fortune rather than good planning. I do actually quite like Mk2 and am looking forward to longer rides with dogs in tow and Joan bringing up the rear but not till the weather warms up a bit.

I think I have got past my initial urge to just get something made now and am keen to settle into a more relaxed build once I decide what it will be.

Sorting through some of my 'stash' in garden sheds I came across a front section of something. Can't decide what it is/was but pretty sure it wasn't pedal cycle related. Maybe a garden tractor or similar. Pics included here. It does have a pair of brake assemblies which look interesting. It's a heavy lump as it stands but some useful bits so I'll dismantle it and put to one side for now. There are dozens of wheels and half a dozen nice bike frames stacked in sheds which I need to decide what I should do with and boxes of bits, some of which I haven't a clue what they are. I do try to resist the 'might come in handy one day' thoughts but it's hard!

I'll keep following your and Darren and Danny's threads until something inspires me. Meanwhile Joan has thoughtfully listed about a year's worth of 'little jobs' she needs doing- lucky me eh!

John

 

[stormbird]

John

No just planing myself into a corner or around in circles.

A working trike is quite a feat don't belittle your efforts !

The strange thing could be a lot lighter if bike wheels could be added ?

Steering looks primitive ?

Does it have a useful track width ?

Paul

 

[jonrev]

Track is a bit narrow and it's built like a tank- way heavy. The steering was actually one of the best things about it. Nice heim joints with ally tube track rods and full ackerman geometry. Was dismantling today and found a sticker which said RWS (iIrc) Cycles of Peterborough. I can't imagine for a second it would have been made for pedaling. Apart from the weight it has plain plastic front wheel bearings. Wheels are lightweight plastic wheelbarrow type things. May come in handy for a garden machine of some sort.
There's another odd box section chassis of some kind with bike steering header which I'll put up a pic of for opinions. Drawback to me is it's aluminium but maybe you guys will have some ideas.
There's also a really interesting alloy standard bike frame with air shock rear suspension which I'd be tempted to build up if I had a rump which fitted a bike seating position.

John

 

[jonrev]

Untangled the other oddity from a shed to take pics. I really looks to be a chassis for an upright trike but can't see where the pedals would go and be able to spin? It's ally but still built heavy. Has half bearing shell type inserts at the rear.

Would be interested if anyone can see what it might be and if there are any suggestions as to what it could be made into.

John

 

[Popshot]

Swivel out ironing board.

 

[jonrev]

It was worth a try but Joan complained she had trouble balancing the iron on the sticky-up bit. Women- just never happy eh!
Oh hang on though. Maybe the sticky-up bit is actually a sticky-down bit and I had the whole thing upside down!!

John

 

[Popshot]

I suspect it's a scooter chassis of the type similar to this given the seat post tube so not designed to be pedalled.

 

[stormbird]

Good call , probably one of these ?

Paul

 

[jonrev]

Yes you got it for sure. Either one makes sense now. I'm sure there are a few odd bits including a motor and couple of small wheels somewhere in a box and some sort of toothed belt drive. Small and low powered by looks of it so would fit with the invalid scooter idea nicely. No use but good to know what the bits are/were- thank you both.

Only other mystery I can think of is a couple of tubes, straight and maybe 5ft long, with dropouts on their ends. Just bare painted tubes with dropouts. They look like finished articles and professionaly made but have no brackets or fittings of any kind. No signs of ever having been fitted or used and again I can't think what they could be from. My immediate thought was bits for one of Brad's outrageous chopper style bikes but these don't look home made to me.

John