Kyoto/delta backwheel hub

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Aug 21, 2017
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Hi!
I am building a Kyoto, and I was thinking instead of making those plates with 48 holes and rebuilding that wheel, would it not be a valid solution to weld the wheel with its steel hub right to the axle? I would empty the hub, and there are 2 inside flanges that I would have to widen a little to make the axle go through all the way through the hub, and these flanges seem to be about 3 mm thick at least. Has anyone tried this? Opinions? (I am using a 48 spokes 20 inch wheel and I think the inside flanges are closer to the flanges holding the spokes on my hub, compared to this image from the Kyoto instructions...)
 
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Brad has written 2 books and one of them said it would work as an option to the homemade washers/flanges.

There will be some problems , however as long as the wheels are 20" the flanges being closer together is not one of them ;)

The hubs may/probably be chromed , some welding methods will need that removing as underneath will be a thin layer of copper to get the chrome to stick to the steel.

The bearing races inside the hubs will/usually are hardened and cannot be drilled , howveer most hubs are only pressed toether so if you remove the spokes and disassemble the hub they can be knocked out ?

It may be prudent to put a few tacks around the hub/central tube to encourage it to stay together after surgery , then rebuild the wheel.

Tutorials to help are here :- Tutorials bottom of page

If you follow that route check howmay crosses the spokes have , not missing the one's very near the hub , otherwise it will never go back together !
 
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I echo Paul's point about them being pressed together and therefore quite able to fall apart if butchered. You'd need to be certain that anything you do doesn't propagate such a scenario when in use. When I was making a motor drive adapter I was butchering an old steel hub which decided to part ways with it's constituent parts during the process. Bad enough if a motor drive falls apart in use but much worse if a wheel falls off.

If you do decide to attack it then use a small flap wheel rather than a drill. As Paul says they are drill resistant (very) but they will grind.
 
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The picture above has me thinking - dangerous I know!
Why does the delta use a solid shaft? Everything I've always understood is that a solid shaft offers very little extra strength over a hollow one with thick walls. The primary strength factor is the diameter. ie a 1" solid axle is less strong than a 1.25" diameter one with 1/8" walls. The latter being much lighter as well as stronger. If someone can explain that one I'd be grateful.
 
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So no easy way out then...
Rereading your post , are you trying to do this without building a wheel ?

You do not need 48 spoked wheels !

32 or 36 will be adequate if you are not planning any deliberate high speed off road stuff

Do you have access to second hand wheels etc ?

If you do have a look through the BMX wheels ? some have small axles [ no good] however to try and look tuff like the real stuff they have very wide hub flanges ?

If you could find 2 of those you could make an adapter like a disc rotor mount , weld it to you axle and bolt through it and holes drilled in the wide flange ? that may work.

What are you intending to do for brakes ?
 

Radical Brad

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I completely agree!

Finding said hollow shaft is the issue.
And if such a part does exist in the "mainstream", I would bet that it would need to be machined to make a bearing slide fit.

Brad

The picture above has me thinking - dangerous I know!
Why does the delta use a solid shaft? Everything I've always understood is that a solid shaft offers very little extra strength over a hollow one with thick walls. The primary strength factor is the diameter. ie a 1" solid axle is less strong than a 1.25" diameter one with 1/8" walls. The latter being much lighter as well as stronger. If someone can explain that one I'd be grateful.
 
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The trick there might be use use metric tube and imperial bearings or vise-versa. 25mm shaft and 1" (25.4) bearings or perhaps there's a better fit elsewhere in the range.
 
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For what it is worth ..

I started making a trike with the same rear axle setup as the Kyoto. It was shelved as needs changed.I wanted rear suspension, disc brakes, removable wheels and removable axles - and use my Kyoto-type wheels as well. How could I have all that?

The design I came up with was to make a Kyoto-type wheel with a hub centre from tube that is a nice slip fit over the 5/8" rod that I was using for axles. Why 5/8"? It fits the pillowblock bearings. The modified hub slips onto the end of the axle.

Next problem: How do I drive the wheel?

The only thing to be welded to the axle is a wheel mounting/drive flange. This has four protruding studs that project outwards the same as the wheelstuds on motor vehicles. They locate in matching holes drilled through the inner spoke flange of the modified hubs. Just inboard of the mounting flange will be a brake disc, pillowblock bearings on the suspension arm and a freewheel sprocket on the non-wheel end of the axle.

The wheel is held on by an outside nut and spring washer on the outer end of the axle. Wheels will be very easy to removed and releasing the bearings, brake disc and freewheel will allow the axle to be slipped out.

No pictures yet as some of the design is yet to materialise and I can't get to do some of the necessary steel hacking.

I hope it will all work.
 
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Hej

I did use half a steel hub, tried to mig weld the bearing cups to the shaft, no chance.
Probably could be done with a dissimilar (29/9, E312) stick welding rod.
The bearing cups are very hard and if they don't fit perfectly on to your shaft you will have a hard time making them fit.
The bearing cups also need to be welded to the hub, they are only pressed in and not made to transfer any power.
But if you knock out the cups and have a nice fit to the shaft it shouldn't be a problem.
I also have made my own washers, they are easy to do.

 
Joined
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thanks for saving my life friends! Of course I did not use all your good advice, but to know the hubs come in 3 parts pressfitted, and that the bearing races are most often hardened are both important insights to me. Maybe if I will do another wheel I will use this clean great method as you and the plans propose, but for this time I did it like this:

Maybe hard to see, but I cut of the end of the hub, revealing all 3 parts of the hub (bearing race, shaft, and spoke-holder), welding them together, opening inner part to 20 mm (bearing races now easy to grind after weakened by welding heat). Then sticking the 20 mm axle through it all and welding it all together. To the best of my thinking this should hold up great, I do not have to source rims and spokes separatly, I do not have to lace the wheels but I have to true them. I loosened them a bit before welding.

Why did I do this? Not just because I wanted to save time and effort, but actually because I wanted to see if it could be done, and if so, if I could use the same approach for creating the freewheel-and-discbrake hub in the same manner. I will create another thread about that...

You can see some of my bike-builds on my web page http://isaacfryxelius.se/?page_id=1725
 
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