Hand cranking and tilting Emiel & Popshot I thought of U ?
- Thread starter stormbird
- Start date
Wow! Just about as complex as it could get. Extremely impressive to keep that below 50kg too. I would think the cranking and tilting and steering is simply asking too much of a two armed rider especially whilst also leg pedalling too. I'd think the effort would be exhausting and soon uncomfortable with no part of the body in any at rest pose. A lot of moving parts there and quite a number of control cables so relatively high maintenance. I note at the end the author suggests quite a bit of simplification such as removal of all the leg and arm drive train and use of hub motors and a pedalled generator (undoubtedly a legal issue or at least a grey area in many countries).
A massively impressive proof of concept prototype. The designer / builder has aimed high and largely hit the mark but like the author appears to allude to it would seem to overload the rider with too many tasks to do. I suspect that once beyond the shortest of rides actually enjoying the experience would prove elusive.
An excellent find Paul.
A massively impressive proof of concept prototype. The designer / builder has aimed high and largely hit the mark but like the author appears to allude to it would seem to overload the rider with too many tasks to do. I suspect that once beyond the shortest of rides actually enjoying the experience would prove elusive.
An excellent find Paul.
I have seen similar constructions but then simpler than this one.
Very interesting to see what he did.
For a bike it is way to much, but as a project it is fun to make.
Very interesting to see what he did.
For a bike it is way to much, but as a project it is fun to make.
IMHO arms and feet power are to much in one machine ?
Your calves can take all the oxygen you can process [ biggest muscles in body ] so arms if used are only taking that away from the calves.
The excuse if your legs get tired is false , if your legs are that tired it is time for a break with a overload of caffeine and sugar about 20 minutes usually does it , then fresh for the next 50 miles
I had toyed with the idea of a delta with slightly [ free ] castoring rear wheels a bit like a spin cycle but with 20" wheels all around ?
maybe restrict them to a 20' arc either side of straight ahead ?
Why ?
Well it would stop inaccuracies in the rear frame creating toe in or toe out at the back ?
Should allow a tighter turning circle ? important in an urban environment.
However what little trike time I have could be better spent making rear suspension or a better front end me thinks.
Paul
Your calves can take all the oxygen you can process [ biggest muscles in body ] so arms if used are only taking that away from the calves.
The excuse if your legs get tired is false , if your legs are that tired it is time for a break with a overload of caffeine and sugar about 20 minutes usually does it , then fresh for the next 50 miles
I had toyed with the idea of a delta with slightly [ free ] castoring rear wheels a bit like a spin cycle but with 20" wheels all around ?
maybe restrict them to a 20' arc either side of straight ahead ?
Why ?
Well it would stop inaccuracies in the rear frame creating toe in or toe out at the back ?
Should allow a tighter turning circle ? important in an urban environment.
However what little trike time I have could be better spent making rear suspension or a better front end me thinks.
Paul
Arm power is in my opinion only useful as you can't use your legs.
Drymer made a better tilting trike/vello than this design.
They have it with and without a cover.
Not that complex and it rides more like an upright bike. It isn't something I want, but I find that design better then an arm and leg powered velomobile.
Drymer made a better tilting trike/vello than this design.
They have it with and without a cover.
Not that complex and it rides more like an upright bike. It isn't something I want, but I find that design better then an arm and leg powered velomobile.
Greetings from British Columbia Canada.
I joined this site to get ideas on alternative materials and techniques for building the prototype of my tilting velomobile(s) and discovered this discussion of the article I wrote about my proof of concept vehicle. I hope you don't mind if I jump into the discussion which contains a number of insightful comments.
Popshot and stormbird, you are correct. It's a complex design that has operational implications which can take the fun out of the ride, especially for a novice rider. Although I tried to retain simplicity in structure, I have to admit I was struggling to achieve a challenging array of functions ( arm-leg, tilting, f. to caster steering etc.) and as you mentioned, my "emergent design" is now aiming at greater simplicity ( pedal generator-hub motor). Hopefully I am now on the right track.
Greetings Emiel
I also agree with you. While it's a lot to consolidate into a bike, it has been fun to design , build, and test ride.
The arm-leg drive was incorporated primarily for short to medium duration such as climbing hills which seemed like a good idea until DIY e-assist became feasible a number of years ago with a legal 500 watt power assist in Canada. Unfortunately, due to my human-power-purist-bias, I remained fixated on avoiding the material usage and waste products associated with batteries for far to long.
Hi again.Arm power is in my opinion only useful as you can't use your legs.
Drymer made a better tilting trike/vello than this design.
They have it with and without a cover.
Not that complex and it rides more like an upright bike. It isn't something I want, but I find that design better then an arm and leg powered velomobile.
The Drymer tilting trike is similar since it also has hub-centered front wheels but is different in how vehicle tilt is accomplished. Having observed videos of novice riders experiencing shaky starts, it appears to me that Drymer is Steer Tilt Control design while mine is a Direct Tilt Control arrangement which facilitates control of vehicle inclination at stops, at start ups, on slide slopes, etc. throughout the range of speeds.
I initially experimented with a STC system but decided to incorporate a DTC with free to caster steering in order to facilitate the arm cranking feature. In retrospect, by following that route and experimenting with both STC and DTC I discovered that I prefer the latter with F to C Steering for it's intuitive and simple control features. With DTC the is no need for a separate lean-lock mechanism at slow speeds or stops and no need to master the unconsciously trained skill of counter- steering at higher speeds. In my experience The DTC arrangement provides a more user friendly fail safe tilt control system.
To stormbird, Popshot, and Emiel
Thank you for your interest and thoughtful comments.
I am currently looking for info regarding the Series Hybrid Drive -vs- Parallel Hybrid options as the current lack of a limp-home feature on the SHD is a concern, and of course I am also looking for any tips/advice on constructing my prototype, like more appropriate material(s) to replace items such as the section of the downhill ski for the leaf spring suspension, materials for improving the aero -shape of the shell while reducing the total weight of the cabin. Lots of stuff to look into.
Thanks again. Cheers
Thank you for your interest and thoughtful comments.
I am currently looking for info regarding the Series Hybrid Drive -vs- Parallel Hybrid options as the current lack of a limp-home feature on the SHD is a concern, and of course I am also looking for any tips/advice on constructing my prototype, like more appropriate material(s) to replace items such as the section of the downhill ski for the leaf spring suspension, materials for improving the aero -shape of the shell while reducing the total weight of the cabin. Lots of stuff to look into.
Thanks again. Cheers
Thanks for the explanation why you went this way.
I didn't know that it stayed stable as you went slow. That is interesting because that is something I like. No lock for as you stop or go slow.
Can a pedal generator-hub motor arrangement actually put any meaningful charge into a battery under real world conditions? I've not done the calculations but just at a first thought it doesn't seem like it would add a huge amount of range. I can see a usefullness in such an arrangement if it can satisfy local laws to be classed as a pedalled vehicle however. Will the likely variability of the charge rate be an issue for battery health? at a stop you'd be charging the battery at a decent enough rate but moving you'd be draining the battery - obviously dependent on the pedallers prowess and size of the motor. I'm not a battery expert but such a stop start charge doesn't seem ideal.
Greetings Popshot.
Let me start by disclosing that I have very limited knowledge when it comes to all things electrical, Perhaps this also explains (at least partially ) why I avoided the DIY e-assist route for so long. I should also admit that all my info is purely the result of personal research as I still have no experience with DIY e-assist.
With respect to your comment about a meaningful charge and useful range with SH. In his article "Series Hybrid Drive-System: Advantages for Velomobiles", Andreas Fuchs claims that way back in 1997 they were astonished to learn from tests ( with battery capacities for typical e-bikes of that time) that their SH prototype rode about as long and as far ( similar range) as commercial e-bikes. Sorry but I still do not know how to provide links to articles. From my communications with Bike2 Denmark my understanding is that in their SH setup, the pedal generator can charge the battery at stops, on down slopes etc., but otherwise the pedal e-power flows directly into the motor when it is needed (accelerating etc.).
With respect to your comments on classification. In my province of British Columbia the regulations state that the pedals must be attached to provide a propulsion force but it is not prescribed exactly what the pedals must be attached to. As you mentioned previously, this is all a bit of grey area in many jurisdictions.
Regarding battery health resulting from quick drain etc. I would like to believe that if the overall range is similar to a PH system, it may not be an issue, but I will definitely look into this. One of my reasons for joining this site is to become more informed about what I am getting into. Thanks for the query.
cheers
After a little more thought lithium batteries will probably cope fine with an irregular charge and discharge cycle as any regenerative braking system does exactly that.
OK while riding you don't really charge the battery, but send the current straight to the motor.
That will give you more power then only the battery.
The ratracer is z'n electric car with pedals, that gives you extra power as you pedals. It sends also a current to the motor, what makes that you go faster. You can also use it to get more range to set it to charging the battery.
For what I know about the cells, is that after use you need the wait before you charge them. You can damage the cells as you don't do that. But with electric cars, I don't see them do anything else.
Charging while in use, happens with people that use solar panels on their home.
So I don't know if it is bad or not. I hear from many people it is as I tell them that I want solar power on my trike. But youtube is filled with people doing it.
With my rc racing we didn't wait and the batteries died very fast. But we abused them a lot.
Probably is the low charge rate, no problem and have cars a system to charge the battery so it doesn't damage the cells.
That will give you more power then only the battery.
The ratracer is z'n electric car with pedals, that gives you extra power as you pedals. It sends also a current to the motor, what makes that you go faster. You can also use it to get more range to set it to charging the battery.
For what I know about the cells, is that after use you need the wait before you charge them. You can damage the cells as you don't do that. But with electric cars, I don't see them do anything else.
Charging while in use, happens with people that use solar panels on their home.
So I don't know if it is bad or not. I hear from many people it is as I tell them that I want solar power on my trike. But youtube is filled with people doing it.
With my rc racing we didn't wait and the batteries died very fast. But we abused them a lot.
Probably is the low charge rate, no problem and have cars a system to charge the battery so it doesn't damage the cells.
Pedalling shouldn't add any extra speed as the bms will be the limiting factor in supplying the motor and the generator will feed power back to the battery not bypassing the bms. Only as the battery dies and can't supply the bms limit will pedalling add to the speed but if you're taking the drain that far you're killing the battery anyway. In general use pedalling is merely reducing the draw on the battery and extending range but to what extent will be variable.
It is how the ratracer does it, but I don't know how they build it.
It is an interesting trike/car.
It is an interesting trike/car.
Yes, interesting but also confusing to me.
It appears to function similar to Bike2 but with significantly more battery power (4.5 vs .25 kilowatts ) What I don't understand is the promotional claim that pedaling amplifies the power to go faster. They use the analogy of a guitar amplifier. Does pedaling amplify (as in multiply ) or does pedaling add to the power?
I took a look at the B.C. e bike regulations as stated on a commercial vendors site in your province. They state to be classified as an e bike nothing over 500 watts. And the bike must be equipped with pedals for manual propulsion. To me that seems to indicate a mechanical (ie chain or belt) drive system between the pedals and wheel. Similar rules apply here in Manitoba. I know many people have experimented with systems where the pedals power a generator system to drive an electric motor. I haven't read of any real success stories though. I'm like you in one regard, with no real knowledge of electrical or electronic systems but I do have a small number of e assist trikes/bikes. My latest is a delta with pedal power transmitted to one rear wheel via a jackshaft and a 500 watt geared hub motor on the other rear wheel. It's loosely based on the Loderunner plans. As a aside one older bike rider stops in a few times every year to see what kind of e bikes I've been building. he took the delta for a quick ride around my home and when he came back wanted to have a similar trike and mount a small 4 stroke generator on the bike to keep the battery charge up and greatly extend his range. I'm pretty sure he will never build anything though and I for sure don't want a gas motor running behind me as I pedal.
I think that they raise the voltage. So instead of charging, they put the power from pedaling next to the battery. Like if you have a 10cell you get 12cell all you pedal.
Raising the voltage, will make that you go faster.
Greetings Hugh
I obtained the info on B.C.'s regulations from Fabrizio Cross, the developer of the Electrom. His unique design uses a pedal driven generator to supplement power to a rear hub motor at speeds exceeding approx 12 kph, while a chain drive provides mechanical propulsion to the same rear wheel from starts & especially when climbing steep hills below the 12 kph speed threshold. His experience with riding around the Victoria and Vancouver area has assured him that as long as the authorities can see that he is always pedaling ( even at stops ) they exhibit no interest in his single track velomobile-like vehicle. Fortunately, he actually does have a mechanical connection to the rear wheel.
I'm glad you brought this up because it makes me think about the implications of no mechanical linkage to a driven wheel.
Another Series Hybrid is Podbike being commercially developed in Norway to meet EU regulations on e-assist. But you are correct, The SHD design is rare and can be in-congruent with various classifications of e-assist bicycles.
In any case I am constantly looking for reasonable alternatives to my "emergent design". At present my plan also includes a jack shaft with chain drive to the right rear wheel, but instead of a geared hub motor, I am looking into mounting Grin Technology's 500 watt single sided all axle hub motor to the left rear wheel managed by Grin's Phaserunner controller. This plan permits the structural simplification of the rear swingarms while accommodating the movement of the tilting swingarms outside of the walls of the tail section.
Cheers