Ed's 'StreetRunner' Quad Build

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Oct 19, 2012
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It's not the length of the pipe or the amount of extra fluid, it's the extra calliper. A master cylinder will only move so much fluid. The total amount of fluid in the system is irrelevant. It is the need to move the extra piston area of the extra calliper towards the disc. There's a ratio of master cylinder to slave cylinder sizes that needs to be maintained within a tolerance. If the master is too big, the brakes feel on/off as little movement is required to operate the slaves. If it's too small it means the lever/pedal has to travel further to move enough fluid. If it still moves enough fluid to do the job it can lead to a soft feel to the lever/pedal. At it's worst case it doesn't move enough fluid to activate the callipers properly before the master cylinder bottoms out. Which effect you'd get in this case (soft pedal or no brakes) I don't know as the master and slave sizes are unknown. It's perhaps extra critical in a home made set-up as you'll be mounting callipers on custom made brackets. Unless you get the mounting 100% perfectly aligned to the rotor the act of the rotors spinning will push the pads away. This then needs a bigger movement of the master to get the pads back to the rotor and clamping.
 
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Apr 15, 2013
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Washington state
for information only, Summit Racing Equipment sells a plastic brake lines instead of expensive metal braided brake lines.
If your kit has a foot operated master cylinder, good luck on how to plumb it. I tried several different configurations and none seemed to work right. BUT after I installed a hand brake master cylinder connected to two calipers in rear, and reverse bleed the system, I finally have a working brake system.
 
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Apple Valley, California, USA
for information only, Summit Racing Equipment sells a plastic brake lines instead of expensive metal braided brake lines.
If your kit has a foot operated master cylinder, good luck on how to plumb it. I tried several different configurations and none seemed to work right. BUT after I installed a hand brake master cylinder connected to two calipers in rear, and reverse bleed the system, I finally have a working brake system.
What exactly was the problem with the foot-operated master cylinder setup?
You say "how to plumb it". That would mean to me, the hoses, not a problem with the mechanical operation of the foot pedal. My problem 'will be' the mechanical set up of the foot brake lever. And how to actuate the pistons.
Especially if I put in a dual system, which I'm looking into now.
 
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It's not the length of the pipe or the amount of extra fluid, it's the extra calliper. A master cylinder will only move so much fluid. The total amount of fluid in the system is irrelevant. It is the need to move the extra piston area of the extra calliper towards the disc. There's a ratio of master cylinder to slave cylinder sizes that needs to be maintained within a tolerance. If the master is too big, the brakes feel on/off as little movement is required to operate the slaves. If it's too small it means the lever/pedal has to travel further to move enough fluid. If it still moves enough fluid to do the job it can lead to a soft feel to the lever/pedal. At it's worst case it doesn't move enough fluid to activate the callipers properly before the master cylinder bottoms out. Which effect you'd get in this case (soft pedal or no brakes) I don't know as the master and slave sizes are unknown. It's perhaps extra critical in a home made set-up as you'll be mounting callipers on custom made brackets. Unless you get the mounting 100% perfectly aligned to the rotor the act of the rotors spinning will push the pads away. This then needs a bigger movement of the master to get the pads back to the rotor and clamping.
Good info thanks. I'm looking into increasing my knowledge of all things hydraulic brake-ish. As I mentioned to Mr. Idaho I'm thinking of getting a dual set up. I found a place not far from me that sells the same kit I was looking at, but a bit cheaper. The problem is they are out of stock. I'm waiting on word back if there will be any restocked and if so when.

Another thing is whether I really need a proportioning valve. The slow speeds max 25 mph, may not warrant having one.
 
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While I contemplate how and what to do about the brake issue, I started working on something that's been needing to get done for a long while.
First I made up four 3/4 " bolts, out of 1/4" threaded rod and nuts.
Then ??????............

First clue

Second clue

Last clue (Half done)


Got it yet ?




The rings were cut from a tube I salvaged from a swing set. Perfect fit.




The red area will be a brace for the wood floorboard that will attach along the side of the frame.
Need someplace to rest that left foot.
Another brace will come off that brace, down and under the pipes.
Each pipe 'ring' will bolt to the flat bar underneath.
The rings rotate ever so slightly, because of the spreading of the pipes.
Otherwise, they would bind and scratch the painted pipes.

 
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Didn't quite get it finished.

So here is what I'm going for. I hope to get both done tomorrow.

I used 5/16 " threaded inserts to attach the bracket to the frame. And I tried something new.
In the past, the inserts would slip in the hole, because I didn't have the exact drill bit required for a snug fit.
Without the installation tool, it made it extremely hard to get the inserts seated, so they could be tightened.

This time I used a step drill and drilled the final sized hole only partway through. Thus leaving a beveled thin piece still in the hole.
I then tapped in the insert, which grooved itself into the thin remaining metal. Worked like a champ.
Though the first one was a bit thicker than the second and it pushed the side in somewhat. I'm using 0.060 for the frame.
Upon full tightening, it pulled itself back straight.

Tomorrow I must look at the bracket bolts again. Though there is virtually no weight on the bracket,
the frame wall is thin, therefore it may require another method of securing the bracket.
I may have to remove the battery and run the bolt all the way through the frame.

 
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I didn't get both brackets made as I had hoped. Had to take care of urgent yard maintenance.
But one is done.
After looking at the first bracket, I noticed there was enough room to add an additional
secure point. So I installed two more threaded inserts on top of the two already there.
I had a bit of a tussle with the right one. Had to tack it down to keep it from turning.
Added another one inch on top, so now the bracket is much stronger and doesn't flex the frame wall.



You've heard about "measuring twice, cut once". Well, they should add to check your marking
direction as well. All were measured and marked. What I didn't see was the markings were upside down on the tube.
So I had to weld back on the part I just cut off, grind it flush, remark it (the correct way) recut it,
grind it to match the other half...whew! ... that's enough I tired.





All in all, I'm pleased how it turned out. Having learned a bit from this one, the second one should go quite easily.
That's assuming I'm going in the 'right direction'





Each 'ring' can swivel, and each one is attached separately.


 
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Joined
Apr 15, 2013
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Washington state
what tool are you using to install the threaded rivets. I purchased a HF piece of junk kit and the insertion tool worked for about 4 rivet-nuts. Have lots of rivet-nuts to install on my wife's "urban cart".
Might just use a bolt and couple of nuts but will take a lot longer.
 
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what tool are you using to install the threaded rivets? I purchased an HF piece of junk kit and the insertion tool worked for about 4 rivet-nuts. Have lots of rivet-nuts to install on my wife's "urban cart".
Might just use a bolt and couple of nuts but will take a lot longer.
I have this tool from HF. It works just fine but it is limited to up to 1/4"
https://www.harborfreight.com/45-piece-threaded-insert-riveter-kit-1210.html

I have no issues with the tool other than its capacity. But that was my choice. I had to use the nut and bolt method on the ones I installed so far.
It works ok, but for the fact, I don't have the exact size drill bit required, (for each size insert) which makes tightening them more problematic.
The main issue with a DIY installation tool is the tendency for the insert to rotate in the hole.

If I had 'lots' of them to install, I would get a bearing to place between the tightening nut and the insert. Using a large washer for the nut to press against and the bearing should solve the problem. I found examples of how to do it on YouTube. I watched several different examples before I found one that I tried to make. The first couple worked then didn't, but I learned more how to do it, so I'm getting by for now.

I even looked at how the tips are made, thinking I might be able to make a tip for the larger inserts. Still might have a go at that later.
Another thing to think about is using aluminum inserts. They are much softer and compress easier than the steel ones.

So to summarize. Using the right drill bit size (size matters), check YouTube for examples of how to make a DIY tool,
and aluminum inserts are easier to install. Steel inserts can be tack welded as I had to do on one yesterday.

I almost forgot. Be sure to lubricate the washers so they will slip and slide, if you don't use the bearing method.
 
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Mr. Idaho

I got curious again and went back looking at some of the YouTube videos.

My problem has usually been keeping the insert from rotating in the hole.
I couldn't get enough pressure on the bolt while trying to manhandle two wrenches.
I saw one example where the bolt used was an Allen Head. I think I will make up one using that.
If I were to use a 'T' handle Allen wrench then I would be able to apply press against the insert, via the threads,
and also holding the bolt from turning. Then I could use the other hand to tighten the nut...and voila it's done.

A socket wrench may well do the same.
 
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I ventured out into the deadly virus world, this morning, (mask and all), to get my welding tank refilled.
It is considered 'essential' because there will be no welding without it. And I'm not going back to 'flux-core'.

So in the meantime, I'm still trying to track down a seller of this brake kit.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142780771945

I have located three sellers that are reasonable in their pricing. Two at $119, and one at $129. (All free shipping)
But they are all out-of-stock. ....Go figure!
I contacted one other supplier https://www.gopowersports.com/150-cc-brake-kit-discs-included/ and they want $179 (plus shipping) (total $193) for the same exact item.
Of course, they have it in stock. Maybe their pricing is why. They replied, that they don't price match. I would have entertained a reasonable offer on their part, but no, they don't want/need to sell to me.

Anyway, that aside, I have a question about the installation and use of this kit.
With the two smaller discs in the front, and only the one larger disc in the rear, what effect on the steering will there be?

Specifically, with a split axle and only one disc (left side) on the rear, will it have a tendency to pull to one side when braking?
Remember I'm only maxing out at 25 MPH.
Also remember that those rear tires have a lot of tread on the ground, which will surely have some effect.

I'm prepared to install a second disc/caliper, but that will mean additional cost.
I'm thinking I should install this kit, and do a Drive-N-Brake test. That will tell what needs to be done.

What say you?
 
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My guess (and it's only a guess) is it'd pull up fine. I'd be worried at such a set-up at 70mph but not the speeds you're looking at.
 
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Yesterday and today I spent time working on the passenger side pipe brackets.

I thought I was out of 5/16" rivnuts. I did find a packet of them properly stored underneath all the debris on top of my workbench.
Anyway, my day didn't start well at all. I drilled out the first hole but couldn't get the rivnut to seat, no matter what I did.
I tried welding it, but even that didn't work.

After ruining two rivnuts and grinding away at the side of my frame I decided it was time to take a break.
Break time, and thoughts of what to do. I had four holes to drill and four inserts to install, and nothing is going right.

Back to my life-saving YouTube for inspiration and re-education of how to make DIY rivnut tools.
After my refresher course, I ventured back out and tried again.

Welding issue resolved...

Things are better since I turned the... flow gauge back on.
With my gas now flowing as it should I could concentrate on the 'why aren't the rivnuts seating.

Then the 💡 came on, and I discovered why I was having such a time keeping the rivnuts from turning.

I figured it was about time that I make a proper DIY rivnut tool. So here is my version, and so far it is working as it should.




Result with a used sacrificial nut.



3/8 " and 5/16 "



My HF rivnut tool works just fine, up to 1/4", but I want to use 5/16 and 3/8.
So I need to buy a larger more expensive tool or try to make my own for just those two sizes.



My problem was thought to be the hole size. Not so much.
The rivnut would constantly turn because of the design and manner with which I was using my previous tool.
With this design, (thanks YouTube) it works as intended.
I am able to use the 'handle/guide' for both sizes.

 
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how do you turn the bolt being it's a carriage bolt?
going to fashion myself one of them tools.
 
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how do you turn the bolt being it's a carriage bolt?
going to fashion myself one of them tools.
"how do you turn the bolt being it's a carriage bolt?"
That my friend is not what you want to do.

Turning the bolt (or just the nut/washers against the insert) causes the insert to rotate within the hole.
The idea is to 'keep the bolt from turning'. You want to turn just the nut, which will push down on the guide,
thus 'pulling the bolt up' which compresses the insert.

The carriage bolt was only meant to be a prototype but ended up being kept.
I will replace it later.
Look closely and you will see there is another 'jamb nut' near the top end.



The tubing for the guide part is from an old swing set. It is +/- 3/8 ID and works well for the 3/8 size bolt.
The tube is a little large for the 5/16 size bolt but seems to work OK.

If you are wanting to get a supply of rivnuts, this is where I just ordered mine from.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/340-Qty-Assorted-UNC-Rivet-Nuts-5-Sizes-8-32-10-24-1-4-20-5-16-18-3-8-16/292631934932?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
 
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Upon further 'looking' at my own version, I have seen that all I need to do is cut off the carriage bolt head
and weld the remaining top nut to the bolt...voila! the tool is done.
 
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So I've modified the carriage bolt head. All is well there.

But I decided I would go ahead and make a second handle for the 5/16"

After dressing my wound from an uncooperative grinder flap disc ...
(y) that's NOT a thumbs up for a good job. It's my sliced right thumb.

I used the same tube but welded a 5/16" nut to both ends.
I then drill out the threads, leaving a snuggish guide.
I used some of the +/- 100-foot long rebar pieces I have for a handle.

And now there's two


Drilled out the threads
 
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going to have to fashion one for my shop
thanks
When you do, the length of the handle probably doesn't need to be so long.
The handle for the first one was as long as you see, and I just didn't cut it off.

Gripping it about a hands width plus an inch or two (for thumb pressure) would probably be enough.
I'll know better when I put in the next four inserts.....results pending.
 
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